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tiger@sound.net
Novice

8 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2004 :  05:56:38  Show Profile  Visit tiger@sound.net's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"3D-Analyse" Transform and Lighting TnL emulator
for Voodoo, Kypro, Radeon and OTHERs???
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/tools/emutnl.htm

From the "3dfxzone.it"
and by Tommti Systems...
http://www.tommti-systems.com
thomas@tommti-systems.com

(I hope that I gave the proper respect to their EXCELLENT software?)

... My meager system...
(To get things rolling, down hill, as they say. ;)

2.50 Ghz Intel Pentium 4 in an HP Pavilion 754v
512 MB DDR SDRAM
64 MB " " Graphics Ram with an 82845G Intel Card
And OpenGL 1.1 is On Board, already.
DirectX 9.0b

.......................

From the 1980's, a LOT of us have been dreaming about systems like these... (That Intel "3D Card emulation" has a slower bus structure then a current and recognized "3D Graphics Card" like an ATi Radeon or NVidia at 400 to 800MHz, internal.)

BUT, look at that at that 2500 MHz processor at 2 to 3 times their SPEEDs!!!
I would say that the processor needs to be spending some SERIOUS time "emulating" those 3D Cards and then with a "left over" 300 to 500Mhz, easily, running the "object movement and contact" mechanics of ANY 3D game engine!!!

And from the Intel manufacturer, itself, I should have receive something like your "3D-Analyse" software to emulate ANY and ALL of the 3D cards on the Market!!!

True...
DirectX 9 is getting into TnL emulation and other 3D mechanics...
But where is the Intel software to JOIN all of this, together?

I feel like, I am right on the edge of a GREAT CHANGE and no one is listening... "OpenGL" used to be "there"??? BUT, many game manufactures seem to be moving away from supporting them???

PS...
Currently, I am using "3D-Analyse" to stumble thru "Silent Hill 3" and I am having a certain level of "non game-playing success"??? ;)

http://www.konami.com/main/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000348

But, at least, I'm trying to help a few members, THERE, with my VERY novice knowledge and findings. :) (((And I know, in my HEART, that KONAMI is definitely NOT EVEN THERE,,, folks.))) :(

Edited by - tiger@sound.net on 08/02/2004 06:17:25

Shogakusha
Novice



36 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2004 :  11:48:09  Show Profile  Visit Shogakusha's Homepage  Reply with Quote
how to put this... Ok, you are arguing that because todays processors are so fast that there shouldn't be a need for 3d accelerated graphic cards, because they run at lower clock speeds, and thus the processor could do their job, right? That's like saying that there's no need for the lower rpm electric motors in a car because the engine runs at such high RPM that it should be able to handle all those tasks itself... Doesn't make much sense. You've heard the expression "jack of all trades, master of none"? That's the CPU in todays computers. Universal solutions never work as well as specialized ones. Modern CPUs have added slightly more specialization in the last few years, just think of 3dnow, MMX, MMX+, SSE, etc. but to equal the performance in 3d rendering of a dedicated solution like todays graphic cards would vastly increase the complexity of processors, and the more complex the processor, the few usable chips come off a die, the fewer usable chips the higher the cost of production, and so on. Some day we may see it. All of todays processors have math coprocessors built into them, and that wan't always the case, but I wouldn't expect Intel to buy Nvidia anytime soon. So for now, although processors are faster, say 2 to 3 times faster as you state, they have to do much more than 2-3 times as many calculations to replicate one of the specialized functions built into a GPU. Also, although that left over 300-500Mhz may be enough to handle the mechanics of the 3d game engine, that in and of itself doesn't make a game, and things like game AI of any complexity could easily tax even todays processors when they're not being saddled with all the functions of the GPU.

Comp 1:
- Windows XP Pro
- Athlon 2500XP
- MSI K7N2 Delta motherboard
- 512 meg of 333mhz ram
- Radeon 9700 Pro
Comp 2:
- Windows 98 SE
- Pentium 2 - 333
- 64 meg of pc100 ram
- Cirrus Logic Laguna 5465 vid card
- Monster 3d card
Comp3:
- Windows 98SE
- Duron 800Mhz
- 192Meg of pc100
- Voodoo 3 2000

Edited by - Shogakusha on 08/02/2004 11:49:44
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tiger@sound.net
Novice

8 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2004 :  11:22:03  Show Profile  Visit tiger@sound.net's Homepage  Reply with Quote
... Thank you, for your advice, Shogakusha...
(And now, an ATi Radeon 9700 or 9800 Pro seems very tempting.)

And when new high-level "graphic functions" very simular to "Programmable Vertex and Pixel Shaders",,, will I, then, NEED their new (hypothetical) "ATi Radeon 9900 Pro" or whatever ??? :)

And everyone in the audience yells:

"Heck NO!!!"

"That ATi Pro should serve you for YEARs!!! ;)

(Then THE "Question" becomes: "What is the definition of "YEARs"?

Or,,,
do they sell "insurance" for "YEARs" of graphic card Up-Grades??? :)


... Tiger ...
(Sorry... But my Jest does have an Atom of Truth. Don't you agree?)
To me, a fairly expensive card should serve as a very good piece of solid base-line equipment for the 3D LIFE of a computer system and BEYOND that, even?

Edited by - tiger@sound.net on 09/02/2004 11:29:44
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Shogakusha
Novice



36 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2004 :  13:03:37  Show Profile  Visit Shogakusha's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I expect most components I buy to last me, on average, three years, and I upgrade a major component about every 1.5 years. My video card history looks like this:

Voodoo 1
Voodoo 3
Kyro II
Radeon 9700 Pro

That list tells you two things. One that I too try to avoid the graphic rat race and that I make informed buying decisions when I do make them because of this(I bought cheap). Two that I went 1-2 years between new video cards(I paid for going cheap). That's about what I expect based on Moore's Law. Since every two years the number of transistors on chips doubles, the market can only afford to think about three performance levels, last generation/2-3 years old, current generation 1-0 years old, and next generation 1-2 years from now. As soon as any hardware you have becomes older than that 2-3 year old it stops being nearly as important in the marketplace and you start losing support. You can actually correlate the levels we're on now to directx hardware support in video cards, Directx 8 support is last generation, current generation is Directx 9, and next generation will be the new high-level "graphic functions" that will probably be included in the directx 10 standard. You can see that Directx 7 cards are the ones more than 2-3 years old which game and hardware vendors are starting to ignore compatability for. Look at the cards I listed above and with the exception of the Radeon, I bought cheap parts, or the equivelent of last generation in my above statement. Using the same statement you can see that buying last generation means a shorter support life and a need to upgrade sooner. In retrospect, buying a Monster 3d card just as the voodoo 2s were coming out, and a voodoo 3 when the voodoo 5s were top dog, or the Kyro II when Hardware TnL cards were coming out made sense for my financial situation at the time, but also necessitated upgrades much sooner than spending the money on a current generation video card would have. Based on past experience I fully expect to get 2-3 years from my Radeon in my primary system. With that said, every one of my cards listed above is still in use. They have limitations caused by lack of support from software and hardware developers, but they work so they get used. The voodoo card on the email/word processing machine in the other room might not be good for much, but if my little brother comes to visit and doesn't want to bring his computer(made of my last parts, including the above mentioned Kyro II) then we can still play a game of Homeworld or Serious Sam on the LAN. In conclusion, I may not be buying your hypothetical Radeon 9900 Pro but if I still love new games in 2-3 years, and I bet I will, then the even more hypothetical Radeon 2 1500 with Directx11 hardware support will probably be a requirement that I won't be able to ignore. I'll also bet that my current Radeon will still be going strong in some other rig.

Comp 1:
- Windows XP Pro
- Athlon 2500XP
- MSI K7N2 Delta motherboard
- 512 meg of 333mhz ram
- Radeon 9700 Pro
Comp 2:
- Windows 98 SE
- Pentium 2 - 333
- 64 meg of pc100 ram
- Cirrus Logic Laguna 5465 vid card
- Monster 3d card
Comp3:
- Windows 98SE
- Duron 800Mhz
- 192Meg of pc100
- Voodoo 3 2000
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tiger@sound.net
Novice

8 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2004 :  14:30:10  Show Profile  Visit tiger@sound.net's Homepage  Reply with Quote
... Shogakusha,,, Thank you, very much, for that very insightful view of your 3D card-buying Philosophy...

But, again, I need to concentrate on that "3D-Analyse" software from the "3dfxzone.it", by Tommti Systems...
http://www.tommti-systems.com
thomas@tommti-systems.com


... So,,, Hello to Thomas of tommti-systems !!!

Right now, with some very basic settings within 3D-Analyse, I can actually hear foot steps and then see the main character's final movement, but only when I hit the Escape-key.

And I suspect that I need that "Emulate Cube Maps" option for shader to work? (But when I pick this option then the exe, for "Silent Hill 3", simply fails or blows up? :( So, do I need a VOODOO card for this "Emulate Cube Maps" option???

And, also, I might need a lot more documentation about your 3D-Analyse software??? (Right now, without any proper documents, it is difficult to go beyond the very basic options with 3D-Analyse. :(

(Ps... You only have the "V1.4b2" instead the more detailed "V1.4beta" at your http://www.tommti-systems.com site???)

Edited by - tiger@sound.net on 11/02/2004 14:40:35
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Shogakusha
Novice



36 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2004 :  21:27:19  Show Profile  Visit Shogakusha's Homepage  Reply with Quote
All 3d analyze does is rip out suppport, it doesn't really emulate anything, just so you know. It is essentially a tool for lieing to games as to what your video card can do and then telling your video card to ignore the things it can't do.

Comp 1:
- Windows XP Pro
- Athlon 2500XP
- MSI K7N2 Delta motherboard
- 512 meg of 333mhz ram
- Radeon 9700 Pro
Comp 2:
- Windows 98 SE
- Pentium 2 - 333
- 64 meg of pc100 ram
- Cirrus Logic Laguna 5465 vid card
- Monster 3d card
Comp3:
- Windows 98SE
- Duron 800Mhz
- 192Meg of pc100
- Voodoo 3 2000
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tiger@sound.net
Novice

8 Posts

Posted - 14/02/2004 :  15:30:50  Show Profile  Visit tiger@sound.net's Homepage  Reply with Quote
... Thank you, again, for some very sage advice...

So,,, I am "reversing directions" with my "Silent Hill 3" graphic problems... By asking KONAMI about returning to their non-programmable Vertex and Pixel standards that worked SO WELL with "Silent Hill 2"...

http://www.konami.com/main/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000348

*** To save you some excessive reading... I can, easily, see the main player-character's current position, perfectly, by simply pressing the "Escape Key"... Also, I can hear her moving from one texture-type to another and then I can move, turn and bump into walls with her, etc.)***

(Anyway... Using a slightly lower standard would most likely allow a VAST MAJORITY of computer owners to simply enjoy their "game" and this would be GREAT to continue, onwards, with their "Silent Hill 4" and any other new PC versions.)

Also owners of high-level graphic cards, that are suppose to work BUT DON'T, might be able to bypass their nicer cards and simply PLAY THE GAME with some of their VERY NICE on-board graphic cards?

Ps, KONAMI has had such a terrible time with "Silent Hill 2 and 3" on the PC that this kind of "backwards-compatibility standard", within our VERY DIVERSE "PC Community", should seem more like a "Standard Operating Procedure", SOP, instead of a BIG modification deal...

And, PERHAPS, these different exe's and dll's with some pattern conversion software may be ALL that is needed? Sorry about getting "Off Topic", there, a bit. :(

Edited by - tiger@sound.net on 14/02/2004 15:54:30
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